Diego Sanchez's split decision victory over Clay Guida at Saturday night's Ultimate Fighter Finale was one of the best UFC fights of the year, but MMA fans have been talking almost as much about the judging of the fight as the fight itself.
Sanchez obviously won the first round, but it's open to debate whether it should have been scored 10-8 or 10-9. The second and third rounds were close enough that both could have been scored 10-9 for either Sanchez or Guida, or 10-10. That means I think any of these scores is reasonable:
30-26 Sanchez
30-27 Sanchez
30-28 Sanchez
30-29 Sanchez
29-27 Sanchez
29-28 Sanchez
29-28 Guida
28-28 draw
29-29 draw
As it turns out, the judges scored the bout 29-27 for Sanchez, 29-28 for Sanchez and 29-28 for Guida. All reasonable scores in my opinion. Luke Thomas of Bloody Elbow has a post up that examines the judging in more detail, including the fact that Sherdog's three judges had it 30-27 for Sanchez, 29-28 for Sanchez and a 29-29 draw. Again, all reasonable scores in my opinion.
But while I think it's reasonable to score the fight a draw or even a win for Guida, I don't think there's any reasonable way that a person could look at the totality of the 15-minute fight and say that Guida was the better fighter. Obviously, if you just look at the whole fight objectively and determine who was better, you have to say Sanchez was the victor. That's what Rami Genaur of FightMetric.com does, and the FightMetric.com method says Sanchez dominated the fight.
Judging the whole fight objectively and determining who was better is not precisely what MMA judges do, but maybe it should be. If the 10-point must system can lead to Guida winning a fight in which Sanchez was clearly the better fighter, maybe it's time to scrap the 10-point must system.
I was already thinking about this heading into the Sanchez-Guida fight because of Friday night's Strikeforce main event between Joey Villasenor and Evangelista "Cyborg" Santos. In my opinion, Cyborg was the better fighter if you're considering the totality of their 15-minute fight. But if you judge each of the three rounds individually -- which is what MMA judges do -- Villasenor deserved to win, 29-28. Cyborg was a lot better in the second round, but Villasenor was a little better in the first and third rounds. Villasenor won by split decision.
Some people who want to change MMA judging think MMA should get rid of round-by-round scoring and simply judge the whole fight, as some Japanese MMA promotions do. Others think the round-by-round scoring is OK, but the 10-point must system should be replaced with another scoring method. Still others think the 10-point must system is OK but the problem is that judges score rounds 10-9 too often and should feel less inhibited about scoring close rounds 10-10 and one-sided rounds 10-8, or even 10-7.
Personally, I'm sympathetic to the latter point of view. I'd like to see MMA move more toward the K-1 style of scoring, where judges use the 10-point must system but feel much more freedom to score rounds 10-10 or 10-8. In American MMA, almost every round is a 10-9 round. That's what leads to scores like 29-28 for Guida and 29-28 for Villasenor.
Of course, fighters who don't like the scoring of the judges can't really complain too much. They've got 15 minutes to win a fight, and if they leave it in the judges' hands, then the 10-point must system is what they'll have to live with. At least until someone comes up with something better.
















Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
6-22-2009 @ 10:04AM
where am i? said...
I completely agree.
On my CARDS- I had Guida win the fight. I thought 29-28 , he got rocked the first round, BUT he was fighting back and did even control it in the middle for a minute. 10-8, in UFC, is for a COMPLETE domination, and though he was decisively beaten, I wouldn't say it was COMPLETE domination.
The 2nd two rounds Guida got 10-9 for me.. but barely.
That being said, when looking at the whole thing, just as you said, Sanchez deserved the victory. He was the better fighter, was aggressively trying to submit and did more damage.
So, while I personally scored it for Guida by the current rules, I agree that Sanchez SHOULD have won by pure common sense "who fought better".
Thank you.
Reply
6-22-2009 @ 10:14AM
mike said...
The most important part is the last part. The fighters need to take it upon themselves to take the fight out of the judges' hands. The fighters who deserve to be rewarded are the ones who finish fights.
Reply
6-22-2009 @ 11:09AM
imshortyk said...
Kinda hard to finish fights when your opponent has a granite chin, lol.
Reply
6-23-2009 @ 1:11AM
kwilbur10 said...
agreed. some fighters do have crazy chins and some don't. but if you and the opponent are pretty even in terms of fighting, then i don't mind the split decisions, because it was an awesome fight. what i don't understand is instead of watching an awesome fight and enjoying it, they always want to put their opinion in it. by saying this guy was better and what not. i watch because i like watching evenly matched opponents go after it. though i pull for some fighters i don't want to get caught up in point scoring if it goes the distance then it should have been an awesome fight (even though there are some snoozefest) and i am not usually disappointed in the fight i saw. but hey some ppl always got to be right.
6-22-2009 @ 12:59PM
John Adams said...
What I'd like to see is a little old school UFC rules...back in the day, a fight like the Sanchez/Guida would have got 1 more round added to settle it.
Reply
6-22-2009 @ 5:34PM
grassjocut said...
Back in the opld days it'd be 15 minute rds and you more than likely wouldnt need refs. And can they put on an old school show where they have a tourney? 205 class would be perfect for that, but i know it all comes down to money. But then again I'd drop $80 to watch that tourney
Reply
6-22-2009 @ 5:35PM
grassjocut said...
i mean judges not refs
Reply
6-22-2009 @ 9:30PM
retrojoke said...
10-10 is not possible. DUh
Reply
6-22-2009 @ 11:57PM
claytor said...
This fights judging disappointed me beyond logic. If you take into account all the hype Sanchez gets, not to mention the fact that hes almost a half a foot taller than Guida, not to mention he had almost a half a foots reach advantage, to go along with Joe Rogaines incessant babbling about how other worldly Sanchez's supposed ju jitsu skills are, Guida performance is nothing short of phenomenal.
Guida screwed himself in a sense, offering to gleefully exchange in the very beginning, but Diegos inability to close the match takes away from this flurry or leg kick knockdown. His inability to apply any submissions, getting stuffed over and over by Guida, while Clay, who tried to overcome the already mentioned height/length disadvantage while on top, settling for the (yes, legal) cheap elbow tactics on the top of the head by Diego, should merit some recognition, if only for his ability to keep dictating the pace of the fight. He took control of the third rounds standup, especially considering how the first round standup went, so yes, im a bit confused as to whether the judges went by what they witnessed, or stuck with the hype machine behind a failed Welterweight trying to salvage his career at Lightweight.
Im honestly over Sanchez, the guy fought for Greg Jackson, Darth Greasy himself, and was a greased pig during the Diaz fight, among others. He flopped against Fitch and Koshcheck (complaining about both losses, yet saying Guida makes up excuses for why he loses...), and had to go to a decision against Stevenson in his first LW fight, a guy who was handily beaten by both top fighters in the LW division, Florian, and Penn.
Heres hoping he gets his wish, should be careful what you wish for sometimes..
As for the judging, perhaps an overtime period? Or maybe bring about the 10-10 possibility? 10-9 is such a boxing term, and we know there are far more variables in MMA than just punches traded.
Reply
6-23-2009 @ 12:51AM
jdlissio11704 said...
I agree that yes Sanchez one the first round, and it should have been a 10-8 round, but I felt that Guida one the second round 10-9. The third round was close, but I felt that Guida edge him out, and that would of given Guida it at 10-9, and based on points the fight would have been a draw. Guida was beaten in the standup, but that is only one part of MMA. Guida was able to take Sanchez down at will in the second, and attempt some ground and pound. I would of liked to see that fight be a 5 round fight.
Reply
6-23-2009 @ 9:48AM
easy7179 said...
this one was very hard to score. i don't see how the first round could be a 10-8 when guida got a takedown.
Reply
6-23-2009 @ 11:37AM
Scott M. Lanham said...
Why wasn't this fight schedulked for 5 rounds? That was one of the best fights I've seen all year!
Reply
6-23-2009 @ 2:44PM
neozoo said...
out of all of the seemingly obnoxious and cocky fighters out there that really don't bother me. for some reason, i really really just don't like sanchez, there are others that talk just as much crap,(if not more) than him and yet i really root for him to lose. so it is hard for me to be truly objective, however, i don't believe the 1st should have been 10-8 and even if it was i really thought clay (holy diver- ronnie james dio) guida won the next 2, it should have been a draw. yet it seems that never happens.
the fight i thought that should have had a 10-8 round, is the burns lytle fight, lytle looked completely out in the first.
i do agree though, it was big mistake for clay to come out trading like he did and in a rematch he definately would not make that mistake again.
i know this might sound stupid, but take that damage away and guida wins hands down.
Reply
6-23-2009 @ 3:02PM
Anthony said...
I have a question, does anyone think that judges are encouraged to have a fight end in decision rather than a draw. I felt that this fight was too close and should had been a draw.
Reply
6-23-2009 @ 11:00PM
Alistair Azimuth PSN: johnnynumber5 said...
I don't think Guida has much of complaint because he got dominated in every round even when he was in top position.
The biggest problem with MMA scoring is determing who gets credit for top position and submission attempts/escapes. For example, Diego landed more shots from the bottom in round 2 than Guida did from the top. But, because Guida was on top for nearly the entire round he got it scored in his favor.
There isn't much clarity and the scoring is fairly ambiguous.
Reply
6-24-2009 @ 1:32AM
Ted said...
I think the fight was close but I have changed my original pick. Guida overpowered Sanchez to the mat; however, he never really landed clean shots. I was pulling for Guida but he never hurt Sanchez. The problem with MMA rules is that they hand out points for mere takedowns. What good is the takedown if you can't inflict damage on the opponent?
Reply
6-24-2009 @ 1:06PM
richardbikle said...
you could improve judging by requiring judges to have at least 10 fights themselves
Reply
6-24-2009 @ 2:51PM
daviddrvd said...
everyone 4 the most part agrees diego outshined clay in the stand-up gam-sanchez improves every time he steps in the ring greatly/ but Clay Guida has all the potential to be one of the best to step in the cage...Clay needs to change camps train w/ someone similar in style chimp strength/strong wrestling bkgrnd,dirty boxing why not one the of the best i'm talking bout' the natural Randy Couture of course....a fine tuning will do the trick CLAY GUIDA MAKE THE MOVE PLEAASE...train w/ the best all te tools r there after all te crowd wasn't cheering diego-it was guida they were cheering for
Reply