MMA Top 10 Pound for Pound: GSP Gains on Fedor, Still Not Close

Georges St Pierre dominated Thiago Alves for 25 minutes on Saturday night at UFC 100, solidifying his spot as the No. 2 pound-for-pound fighter in mixed martial arts. But he's still not close to No. 1.

I still consider Fedor Emelianenko the best fighter in MMA, in any weight class, by a significant margin. Fedor has a tough test against Josh Barnett on August 1 at Affliction Trilogy, and maybe Barnett will shock the world and force me to reconsider my pound-for-pound rankings, but for now, as you'll see below, it's still Fedor, alone at the top.

1. Fedor Emelianenko
Consider this: Fedor has finished two-thirds of his opponents in the first round, including all of his last five. GSP hasn't finished anyone in the first round since Frank Trigg in 2005, and GSP has actually lost a fight in the first round more recently than he's won one.

2. Georges St Pierre
I always worry that I'll come across like I'm knocking GSP when I compare him to Fedor, but let me make clear: St. Pierre is the UFC's greatest champion and its classiest act. I like him a lot.

3. Lyoto Machida
He's a huge favorite against Shogun Rua and will, I believe, hold the light heavyweight belt for at least a couple years.

4. Anderson Silva
Forrest Griffin on August 8 will be Silva's toughest opponent to date, but I believe he'll remain undefeated in the Octagon. Then he'll probably defend his middleweight belt against Dan Henderson, the only UFC opponent who has had Silva in any kind of trouble.

5. Miguel Torres
The WEC's best fighter will return against Brian Bowles on August 9 in a fight that I hope doesn't get lost in the shuffle in the excitement about UFC 101 the day before.

6. Mike Brown
I'm in a lather about Brown's next WEC featherweight title defense, against Jose Aldo in November.

7. Rampage Jackson
Rampage will do a great job of selling his fight with Rashad Evans on The Ultimate Fighter. I don't think he wants any part of Machida, though.

8. B.J. Penn
I expect Penn to get the better of Kenny Florian at UFC 101. Can you believe we'll get to see three of the top 8 fighters in the sport that weekend, all against tough opponents?

9. Rashad Evans
Evans' skirmish with Rampage was, along with the appearance of Kimbo Slice at the UFC Fan Expo, exactly what the promotion wanted to hype up TUF 10.

10. Urijah Faber
I think he's still probably the WEC's biggest draw, but Faber will be out of action for a while to rest his injured hands, and he'll have to win a couple fights before he could earn another shot at the featherweight belt.

Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)

7-15-2009 @ 12:15PM

RJ said...

Rampage, Rashad, and Faber aren't top 10 P4P fighters.

7-15-2009 @ 12:37PM

imshortyk said...

Mmm, I think Rashad is, considering he did fight at Heavyweight and the only man to defeat him is the current LHW champ. I do agree Rampage probably isn't, and I don't watch WEC so I dunno about Faber, haha.

7-15-2009 @ 12:53PM

richardbikle said...

Even if Fedor loses, he should still be no. 1, he will still have one of the best records in mma. I dont think page, penn or evans belong. I think you could make a case for lesnar, barnett, (he's dominated his last 4 fights). Vitor, how can you say this isnt one of the most talented guys? I think Shogun is back and Machida might be looking at his first lose, Shogun should be a contender.

7-15-2009 @ 3:50PM

neozoo said...

i don't really get the whole if he loses he should still be #1 thing.
imo he will probably go down as if not the best hw of all time, then within the top 3.
as far as p4p i look at guys whom have been successful in more than just one weight class.
anderson silva certainly seems to top that.
gsp basically said he thinks 185 is too big.
randy has moved up and down and then up again and has been a champion in both weight classes.
hendo has to be in the argument too.
the only problem with bj is he was never really successful at bigger weights.
overeem has also done well. albeit questionable competition.
and as far as mousasi same thing, who's he fought.
and of course you know i like diaz, the dude has fought and been very successful in multiple weight classes...he destroyed gomi, shamrock, smith, etc..

7-15-2009 @ 1:40PM

chilly16 said...

Pound for Pound ranking means nothing.

7-15-2009 @ 2:22PM

Meeaaat said...

Pound for pound rankings are clearly hypothetical and subjective, but I think if you're saying that GSP would be no where close to Fedor, you're being a bit biased.

While I agree Fedor is a much better finisher, that isn't what really matters in a p4p ranking. The only things that should be considered are indicators that answer "who would win?" in hypothetical match ups. The best indicator of this is the demonstration of a fighter's skill against the many styles of high-level opposition. In the multi-faceted sport of MMA, a fighter's worth is measured in terms of how effective their skill set is at dismantling another's.

While Fedor has been decisively finishing his opponents, he hasn't proven as much as GSP against as diverse and as skilled a set of opponents.

Would Fedor fare well against a good take down artist with excellent top control? I'm not so sure. He's got great hips and arm bars, but he hasn't faced enough quality wrestlers to convince me he could get out from under a really good wrestler. GSP meanwhile would stuff those take downs, and never be in trouble in the first place. How about a disciplined high level striker, with good take down defense? We all saw how Arlovski was picking Fedor apart on the feet with his boxing until he decided it'd be a good idea to go for a flashy flying knee. If he kept boxing Fedor from the outside, am I convinced Fedor would have won? I'm not so sure. GSP on the other hand would have have used his take down abilities and taken the fight where he wanted it.

That's the main difference. GSP has good striking and good ground game, but has top of the line take downs and take down defense. He can take the fight where he wants it taken, wherever his opponent is outmatched, while also using the take down threat to limit his opponent's comfort while striking. GSP is far better than Fedor in that aspect of the game, and against my hypothetical opposition, Fedor hasn't given me enough reason to believe he'd come out on top. Maybe he would, but because of lesser opposition, he hasn't demonstrated that he can.

7-15-2009 @ 2:43PM

"Would Fedor fare well against a good take down artist with excellent top control? I'm not so sure. He's got great hips and arm bars, but he hasn't faced enough quality wrestlers to convince me he could get out from under a really good wrestler."

Are you kidding? Randleman was a two time NCAA Champion. Coleman and Lindland were Olympic wrestlers. Sobral and Arona are both great wrestlers from Brazil. I don't understand what you're getting at here.

7-15-2009 @ 2:52PM

johnnynumber5 said...

Fedor has fought the best of the best when those fighters were in their primes and completely dominated all of them. Me thinks you haven't seen many Fedor fights from Pride.

http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Fedor-Emelianenko-1500

His only loss was from a cut ... a loss that in accordance with the rules probably should have been ruled a no contest.

Besides, there is no criteria or standard for determining who is the best PFP fighter. Maybe you think it's a hypothetical matchup while others feel it's how they have fared against those in their own weight class.

Let's not forget that GSP got KTFO not that long ago by Matt Serra ... If you want to be hypothetical you have to consider GSP would get touched with a couple of Fedor bombs and he would probably go to sleep.

Finally, it's all well and good to say Arlovski was beating Fedor in the standup and he would have won the fight ... but, in reality Arlovski got KTFO with one big punch.

Fedor and Rampage have the best striking in all of MMA ... Fedor also has some of if not the best submission in the HW division and certainly in all of MMA. It's all well and good to say that a wrestler could hold him down but his takedown defense is incredible and if you get caught on the way in odds are you are either going to get KTFO or chokedTFO.

I don't even think GSP is the second best fighter in MMA ... I have and Machida pretty much even at the 3 & 4 spots with Anderson Silva as the second.

Do you believe that if Anderon Silva and GSP fought a catch weight fight that GSP would have any chance of beating him? GSP is the best welterweight in the world and could be the best fighter in the world at some point but at this point it's Fedor & Anderson by a LAAAAAARGE margain.

7-15-2009 @ 2:37PM

I'm going to respectfully disagree with this list and give my own top 10 Pound-For-Pound list.

1. Fedor Emelianenko - Best on the planet.
2. Anderson Silva - He is so good he makes it look boring.
3. Georges St.Pierre - Needs to finish fights to be the best.
4. Gegard Mousasi - Most underrated fighter in the world. Will fight anyone at any weight class ... and win.
5. Lyoto Machida - Starting to come into his own.
6. BJ Penn - No one is better at lightweight.
7. Rampage Jackson - Most dangerous striker in all of combat sports.
8. Miguel Torres - One of the most dominant fighters of this era. Problem is the level of competition.
9. Eddie Alvarez - All this guy does is win tournaments. One slip up against Aoki is the only reason he isn't higher. Always improving.
10.Shinya Aoki - Has proven to be the best submission specialist in all of MMA.

These are the best of the rest of the fighters on the planet.

Outside looking into the top 10 (in order)
Nick Diaz
Kid Yamamoto
Jose Aldo
Mahmed Khalidov
Josh Barnett
Rashad Evans
Shogun Rua
Urijah Faber
Dan Henderson
Yushin Okami
Jacare Souza
Joachim Hansen
Brock Lesnar
Mike Brown
Gilbert Melendez
Renato Sobral
Jon Jones

In my opinion Mike Brown is grossly overrated as a fighter. I don't see him lasting three minutes with Jose Aldo. I also can't see how anyone would say Machida and St.Pierre are more dominant in their weight class than Anderson Silva. I think Anderson Silva is one of the few guys in the world who could hold a belt in three or four different divisions at once. If Fedor is number one than Silva is number one A.

7-15-2009 @ 3:16PM

Eric said...

I'll never understand peoples inability to respect Mike Brown ... The proof is in the pudding:

He is on a 10 fight winning streak.
He beat the previous #1 featherweight (Faber) TWICE!
He completely crushed a very tough #1 contender (Garcia).
He has never been knocked out - nor has he lost a decision. His only losses were by submission earlier in his career.

7-15-2009 @ 3:51PM

"Are you kidding? Randleman was a two time NCAA Champion. Coleman and Lindland were Olympic wrestlers. Sobral and Arona are both great wrestlers from Brazil. I don't understand what you're getting at here."

We're talking practical MMA abilities, not amateur wrestling credentials. Two different things. GSP would get handled in a pure wrestling match against Kos. His practical application of wrestling in MMA is a different story though, and he's proven it. Discarding weight differences, I think GSP takes Fedor down 8 or 9 times out of 10. I think it's fair to say that wrestling take downs have been shown to be more effective than Judo/Sambo take downs in MMA. Fedor has been on his back several times against less than mediocre take down artists. He hasn't proven how well he'd do against fighters with better top game.

"Fedor has fought the best of the best when those fighters were in their primes and completely dominated all of them. Me thinks you haven't seen many Fedor fights from Pride."

Then you'd be thinking wrong, I'm well aware of how he's fared. I'm not saying he can't be #1, but saying that GSP is far behind seems laughable. As far as Fedor fighting fighters in their prime, I don't disagree that he's done his share. But the lighter weight classes have always been deeper than the heavyweight division. You have better, more rounded opponents, and GSP has proven himself against better opposition.

Fedor definitely isn't the best #1 or #2 striker. He has great power, and good timing, but he's not technical at all. Yes he KOed Arlovski, but my point was that a *disciplined* technical striker who could defend his take downs would've picked him apart the whole match. Fedor had nothing for Arlovski in those first few minutes, until yes, he KOed him with one punch.

Correction: GSP submitted to strikes from Serra, he was seriously hurt but never got knocked out despite several flush power punches. If Fedor landed several flush power shots to GSP, I'm sure he'd get hurt too. Fedor would be the same though ala Fujita, so I'm not sure what your point is.

I agree that there's no pre-determined p4p criteria and it's all subjective, but I think this interpretation of the ranking gives it the most meaning. If others want it to mean something else, I guess that's up to them.

As far as a catch weight fight with Anderson, we're talking about p4p here. Disregarding weight, who would be better? If Hendo can take Anderson to the ground and grind him for a round, GSP can too. It's kind of strange you'd turn to hypothetical match ups to try to make an argument after trying to discredit my line of thought though.

7-15-2009 @ 4:25PM

am wrestling is not just a great foundation but more pratical than most other martial arts "applications". everyone likes to discredit wrestling, but its proven to be one of the most useful fourms of martial arts.
fedor has subbed some of the best wrestlers ever to compete in mma. there is no way to discredit his achivements. that he has been taken down doesnt negate that. a fighter that has great submissions is just happy to get it to the ground. that said, i'd say fedor has some of the best switches/reversal/escapes in all of mma.

7-15-2009 @ 4:57PM

Anderson and GSP are only one weight class apart and a catch weight (between WW & MW - non title fight) has been rumored for a while now.

GSP is a solid fighter who is improving his game. This is especially true since he came into MMA as a pure striker. However, IMO he isn't in the same stratosphere as Fedor or Anderson Silva.

Again ... you want to play the game about Henderson took Silva down and thats supposed to mean he would be able to take Silva down easily. But, you want to sort of disregard that GSP has a questionable chin. If Matt Serra could buckle him and make him tap from strikes do you honestly think he could absorb a punch from Fedor or Silva?

I'm pretty sure that you think more highly of GSP than he does of himself. In fact, GSP himself said that Fedor is the P2P in the world:
http://mma.fanhouse.com/2008/09/19/georges-st-pierre-fedor-emelianenko-is-mmas-best-pound-for-po/

In time GSP could be the best P2P but thats just not the case at this time ... even from the mans own admission.

GSP might have to move up in weight for another challenge like what Anderson Silva has had to do recently. At this point I don't see how anyone can say GSP is better than Fedor or Silva ... I'll say he is in that next tier after those two.

7-15-2009 @ 3:56PM

eric, i totally agree.
it sucks he doesn't seem to get the props he deserves.
and aside from his talent, he happens to be one the nicest and most humble guys in mma.
true mma fans acknowledge him.

7-15-2009 @ 5:02PM

I never said the guy wasn't good or talented. But, I wouldn't make the leap that he is one if the 10 best fighters in the world regardless of weight. I would put him in the top 20 in the world but not near the top 10 or even top 15.

If he beats Jose Aldo and then we can start having the discussion. You have to dominate a weight class or be very successful in multiple weight classes to get a mention for best P2P from me.

I think Mike Brown is grossly overrated when he is being mentioned ahead of other more deserving fighters who have done more against better competetion.

7-15-2009 @ 6:56PM

Johnny, we might just need to agree to disagree on this, it's subjective after all.

You're not really addressing my points though, just bringing up others. I think fighters with the skill sets I describe would give Fedor trouble, and I don't think he's had a chance to demonstrate otherwise because of the less diverse and lower relative level of opposition he's faced. That's my argument.

To address the new points you bring up though, Anderson Silva has 30 pounds of natural walking weight on GSP. 215 to 185. That pretty much says it there. It's why GSP has said repeatedly he wants to take his time to do gain muscle properly if he wants to move to MW.

I wasn't disregarding that he could get hurt in the stand up. I said it myself, if he gets tagged flush with those kind of powershots, he's going to get hurt, but so is anybody else. If you take that number of successive powerful blows flush, who's not going to go down?

It's not kickboxing though, it's MMA, and GSP has demonstrated well executed gameplanning in taking strikers out of their element. Even the threat of take down helps limit the effectiveness of his opponent's striking. Saying that GSP can take Anderson Silva down and keep him down is entirely relevant in that regard, and if Henderson can do it, in a p4p discussion disregarding size/weight, you have to think GSP can do it with even greater success. In an actual fight at a catch weight, I'd be less sure though. Anderson would have a reach and presumably strength advantage.

I've seen that GSP interview as well. GSP's a humble guy, but even I'm not saying that Fedor can't be considered at the top. What I'm saying though is that saying GSP isn't in the same stratosphere is ridiculous given what he's demonstrated in actual fights against more diverse and more skilled opponents. He's practically cleared out what's arguably the deepest division, and in dominating fashion.

If you want to get into quotes though, Fedor has said repeatedly that he doesn't think he's the best fighter in the world, although he shrugs off questions as to who is. Does that mean he shouldn't be considered p4p now?

Again, p4p rankings are completely subjective, so nobody can prove anything, but I think I've addressed all of your arguments clearly, whereas you haven't effectively been able to address mine.

7-15-2009 @ 7:29PM

you know what guys - this is one of the best subjects ever. why? because the jackazz's didnt come in an make personal attacks trying to sound like they know something; just knowledgable guys discussing mma. thanks guys for the enjoyable read.

7-16-2009 @ 12:38AM

ronin183 said...

The trouble with p4p lists is that it's kind of like asking what would happen if Luke Skywalker entered The Matrix to fight Neo. It's fun to imagine, but the outcomes are about as predictable as lightning. All I know is that if GSP could bulk up to 230 while keeping his athleticism in tact, that would be some scary stuff. If Fedor could drop to 185 and not have to worry about a 350-pounder mounting him, no middleweight would be safe. But just as plausible would be to wonder if a 230lb GSP could take a shot in the chin from a Lesnar-sized opponent, of if a lighter Fedor could free himself from Anderson Silva's clinch.

The only way to know would be to revisit the rules of the first UFC. No weight classes, far fewer restrictions, etc. We all knew that from 1993 to 1995, Royce Gracie was the toughest p4p fighter in the world. Of course, the game has evolved since then, and so have the fighters. Too bad we'll never see this format again, because that would answer the questions.

As for me, I'm a GSP fan at heart, but I'd find it very difficult to bet against Fedor.

7-16-2009 @ 8:02AM

claytor said...

The only knock i have against GSP and the whole amateur wrestling sucks bid is two things...

a)he fights smaller, less physically strong opponents, using wrestling to impose his will via said strength advantage. Alves doesnt count, hes a middleweight who can barely make the Welterweight bar as well.

b)he said himself that he walks around at 185, so why would he have ANY issue fighting Silva at his more NATURAL weight class? a little lost here.

I like GSP's style, and the guy is a humble cat, but clearly ducking Anderson while not trying to do what other great P4Pers have done before him (Silva finally testing his meddle against a former LHW champion, Couture winning the belts three times in two different weight classes, not actually losing it to an opponent the third time properly), then yes, hes a distant second. GSP just hasnt met his natural (key word: hes a 185er beating up 170ers) level of competition yet, and when he does and should he succeed? Hes most definitely the #2, possibly the #1.

7-16-2009 @ 8:51AM

It sounds like you're using a different set of p4p criteria than I would claytor. When thinking about p4p, I think it's more meaningful to just think about "who would win, when disregarding size/weight." Yes, it helps to be able to challenge bigger guys to prove your capabilities against them, but it also helps to dominate what's arguably the cream of the crop of the deepest division there is. Dominating skilled opponents is more of a feat than just beating bigger guys in my opinion.

I think you might be a little misinformed about the purpose of having weight classes. Maybe responding to your questions will help clear it up:

a) He's in a lighter weight class, so it's only natural that he's fighting smaller opponents than Silva or Fedor, who themselves are naturally larger, and face naturally larger opposition. It's the reason for the different weight classes. Fighters of similar size compete against other fighters of similar size, otherwise they'd have natural strength and reach advantages. GSP is actually a pretty average sized welterweight. Guys like Serra and BJ happen to have chosen to compete at above their natural weight classes, and are small in comparison, but guys like Alves and Fitch are actually bigger guys than GSP, and GSP handled them both. Alves walks at 10-15 pounds more than GSP, and Fitch in fact used to compete at light heavyweight. Most of the other guys in the division, including Hughes, are in and around the same size as GSP.

b) GSP walks at 185, and cuts down to 170 at weigh-in time. Yes, the middle weight division has a weight limit of 185, so he could fight without cutting, but he'd be competing against an Anderson Silva who walks at 215, and trains then cuts down to 185. GSP would be fighting at both a natural strength, and reach disadvantage. Practically all of the UFC fighters are cutting weight to make their weight limits, GSP is no different. He isn't ducking a middle weight challenge, he's just asking to be given proper time to put on the weight properly to fight at the higher weight class. Anderson Silva is a large middleweight, and it isn't as much of a stretch to fight at light heavyweight for him. GSP on the other hand is an average welterweight, and moving up is more of a stretch.

Again, my take is that GSP has proven himself against a more diverse set of skilled opposition than anybody else. In the multi-faceted sport of MMA, a fighter's worth is measured in terms of how effective their skill set is at dismantling another's. I can come up with a reasonable skill set that I argue could give Fedor trouble, but which GSP has proven he can handle readily. In a p4p ranking, where I contend answering the question of "who would win?" is the main criteria, I personally think GSP should be above Fedor, and hearing others say that GSP is "still not close" or that Fedor is "in another stratosphere" sounds completely ridiculous given what GSP has proven he's capable of. If Michael David Smith here is interested in debating his stance, I'd be happy to do so. My argument is laid out right here.