UFC 101: B.J. Penn Beats Kenny Florian By 4th-Round Submission

Eddie would also lose to be honest. The only guy I can see beating BJ Penn (especially the in shape Penn from tonight) is Shinya Aoki. I don't even think Aoki could take those punches Florian took from Penn. Diego Sanchez has a good shot because he is a pretty good striker but I just don't see anyone at Lightweight messing with Penn.

johnny don't fall out of your chair...but...
that was perfectly said.

although, i don't think it really surprised both of us all that much. we both picked penn and silva easily. as a matter of fact you've talked of crappy ufc cards in the past and to be honest, going into this card i thought it was weak and as it turned out...i thought this card really sucked.

very anti climactic. it wasn't really much to care about. did any of the guys on the undercard really come across as future contenders.
i mean i like almeida, but it wouldn't surprise me if his best days are behind him.
and i really gave florian and griffin no really serious shot of winning.

your assessment of silva is spot on. should he really even bother ever fighting again at mw? until there is someone to give him trouble at lhw. i personally thought the hendo fight was easy for him too. i know others think hendo was winning, i just didn't see it that way. no one has even come close to hurting him, let alone beat him. silva is silky freaky. it is going to take someone with tremendous power or skill, to beat him. i see 4 possiblities.

and this is if they all win there respective upcoming fights.
1: shogun: especially if he beats machida. remember not too long ago shogun was considered best in the world. and he's still young.
2: rampage: mainly because of his power
3: belfort: he's a weird one, former hw champ that now only seems to want to fight at mw.
4: jon jones: don't crucify me on this one, his age and potential, speed and athleticism might give silva a go. even as i'm writing this i don't know that i really believe this one either.
machida? they said they won't fight each other. and it would probably be one of the most boring fights ever, or the best fight ever.
your boy, mousasi? maybe..if he even signs with ufc.
no question anderson at this point in time is best p4p in the world.

and i totally agree with you on penn. i don't particularly care for penn, but the dude is the best lw on the planet and probably best lw ever.
imo, sanchez has no shot, unless bj is completely bored and doesn't train. and i don't think sanchez deserves the next shot. then again sanchez is my least favorite fighter.

here's the problem for bj, gsp and silva at mw.....motivation. percieved challange. that is the only way those guys get beat right now.

i think tonights wec card will be better than last nights card.

Neo & Johnny, I felt too that last night's card could have been better. Not that it was a lousy card. At least the main fights kind of made up for it. Though, neither outcome really surprised me either. Of course, I like reading your opinions. Here's my response.

I think BJ Penn is going to be the man at 155 lbs. for awhile. Diego Sanchez will probably bring the fight to Penn due to his aggresive style. Beyond that, however, it's very difficult for me to estimate Diego's chances of success (Penn will still be the suredog though). As loaded as the UFC's lightweight division is I don't see many fighters presenting too many problems for the champ. Regarding his conditioning, well, if others will keep relating that issue with his fight with GSP; you have to think about it. GSP is huge at 170 and goes into his fights probably weighing at 185 lbs (which ludicrous). I say it's ludicrous because that defeats the purpose of having weight classes. BJ Penn moved up to 170. I'm not sure about having a rematch between the two. Regarding Shinya Aoki vs. Penn. It could be a phenomenal grappling match. The problem is that Aoki's stand up is not very good but isn't offset as much as his ability to take a punch. Could you guys think of any other interesting lightweight matchups with Penn?

We always knew Anderson Silva was awesome. I'm not too crazy about his next matchup with Henderson. I also feel that their isn't much competition for Silva at middleweight maybe with one exception. I always had a lot of interest in Vitor Belfort fighting him. I'm sure Vitor realizes that middleweight is the optimum weight for him. I would really like to see how Vitor and Rich Franklin's bout turns out. Anderson fighting at light heavyweight is real interesting.

We all know that some of his best matchups are probably there now. We also know that Anderson Silva fighting Lyoto Machida is not a strong possibility. Neo listed some interesting matchups (just noticed that you also listed Belfrot). Jon Jones is probably the future of the light heavyweight division. He could be a major force in the near future. Therefore, I think fighting Anderson is too soon at this point. Shogun could be a good matchup for Anderson, but I think he leaves himself open too much when throwing punches. Thus Silva's counterpunching could be extremely effective against him. On the ground, it wouldn't even surprise if they kind of canceled each other out. Which leads me to say that the most interesting matchup for me against Silva would probably be Rampage. I'm not sure about the standup category, but Rampage does have good wrestling. Which is, what I think, could be deciding factor. It's hard for me to dedcide about Gegard Mousasi, since I've never really seen him fight.

@Neozoo & M13

Yeah I'm a huge BJ Penn fan and I think if you just talk about how dominant a fighter is in their own weight class that Penn is possibly the most dominant fighter on the planet. I was super impressed with how BJ came into that fight ... he really looked lean and mean and very muscular. When you look at Florian and his sort of long wiry (wireE) frame compared to Penn's shorter and more compact frame it's obvious Penn is the bigger and stronger fighter.

When I look at the possibilities of future contenders to the lightweight UFC title I think of a few people and I'll break down their chances.

Frankie Edgar - He has improving striking and decent takedown defense. The only thing about Edgar is he doesn't really have heavy hands and he has a tendency to fight straight up and almost robotic. Now, his head movement look improved against Sherk in his last fight and he mixed up the kicks to keep Sherk off balance. But, I think BJ has shown that he like opponents that throw kicks because he times them with a big right hand or takedown. Edgar is probably the most deserving fighter at lightweight but I don't see him faring any better than Florian. But, at the end of the day this one probably ends in a TKO win fr Penn because Edgar enjoys staying in the pocket and exchanging strikes.

Diego Sanchez - A very large lightweight that has fought as high as middleweight in the past. He has a great wrestling background but has seemingly turned himself into more of an aggressive striker. I think his tendency to want to stand in the pocket and have furious exchanges might hurt him against someone with as heavy hands as BJ Penn. I would give Diego somewhat of a chance simply because of his striking and fast pace. But, I think Penn has proven that he can go at that fast pace for 5 rounds. I think this fight is going to end with Sanchez getting caught and rocked from a big Penn uppercut then probably getting choked out.

Gray Maynard - The Bully is a good nick name for this wrestler who employs a similar style to Randy Couture and Matt Hughes. Maynard like to clinch and control his opponent from the top position while raining down vicious ground and pound. I think this is a scenario of styles making fights because the fighters that have given Penn trouble in the past have primarily been fighters with good wrestling pedigrees like GSP and Hughes. Now, it also needs to be said that those fights were at welterweight where Penn has a tremendous strength disadvantage. So, I see Penn being able to neutralize Maynard's ability to get this fight to the ground. BJ is pretty much impossible to take down and if his new conditioning continues to improve I don't see The Bully Gray Maynard having any success in trying to lean on BJ and rough him up. I see this fight ending pretty ugly for Maynard as I expect BJ to hit him with a good elbow or uppercut when he seperates from the body clinch like he did against Florian. Also, if Maynard does take him down I don't think he has the strength to get out of BJ's rubber guard and will probably get hooked in a triangle chome from inside BJ's guard.

The only other UFC guys that have a possible shot are Sean Sherk (BJ already destroyed him), Tyson Griffin (fights the same as Sherk), Clay Guida (um no) and Joe Stevenson whom Penn already dominated.

The problem for all these UFC lightweight contenders is that for the most part they all fight similar styles. They are all wrestler with average striking (other than Sanchez) thats very predictable. These guys at this size can't handle BJ's hands and power and they can't take him down. To be honest I feel sorry for most of them because they are in the division that has possible the greatest fighter in the history of the sport at that weight class (maybe of all time when it's all said and done.)

If BJ Penn continues to improve his conditioning and starts to push himself to the limit of his physical being in training no one in the world can beat him at 155. Only the best fighters at welter weight would have a shot against that BJ Penn.

You guys need to remember that BJ could have overtrained for this fight. Once he understands when the right time to peak and gets more time with Marinovich he might never lose a fight again at any weight class and especially at 155. To be honest I hope he stays at 155 because thats a natural fit for his body type.

Other fighters not in the UFC that make the most sense are Eddie Alvarez, Joachim Hansen, Tatsuya Kawajiri, Josh Thomson and obviously the dream fight would be Shinya Aoki. I don't think Aoki could handle BJ standing up and their Jits pretty much cancels out.

As far as Anderson Silva goes:

I don't think Silva is far and away the best P4P in the world even after that win. My felling for a while has been that Silva and Fedor were in that tope tier with GSP, Penn and now Machida in the next group. This win by Silva at worst moves him on equal footing with Fedor and at best slightly inches him ahead of Fedor. However, it's not anywhere close to far and away the best P4P. Again, if Fedor demolishes his next opponent (Rogers, Werdum or Overeem) as easily as he did Sylvia and Arlovski he will inch back ahead. Much like Silva makes good fighters look bad Fedor does the same thing with good HW fighters which he is at a tremendous size disadvantage.

As far as Silva and his next opponents - I thought Henderson did a good job in that first fight in the first round when he took SIlva down and beat him up. But, it's not like Silva was in much trouble. In fact, the most trouble I've seen Silva in a while was against Travis Lutter. A good wrestler that has good strikes can give SIlva fits and has a good chance of winning so I don't completely count Henderson out of that fight like many seem to be doing. I also think Marquardt could beat Silva if he has the fight of his life. There just isn't much competition for Silva at middleweight. I'm not ready to say that Belfort is ready to beat him up - I want to see how he handles Franklin (whom Silva dominated) and let's not forget Wanderlei Silva is also making the transition to middleweight and has very dangerous striking and Yushin Okami also makes sense because it's a grudge match.

So, there are some interesting fights at middleweight for Silva but the best fights for him are at Light Heavyweight. Jon Jones isn't even close to polished enough to fight SIlva or Machida. Jones needa a few more years of experience and needs to tighten up his sloppy striking before that fight happens and is competitive. Now, at LHW the fights are much tougher for Silva because those guys have good size that equals The Spider. Anyone from Shogun, Rampage, Evans, Cane or even Jardine would make for interesting fights. From what I've seen the guys that have given SIlva trouble are usually very slick submission fighters. There isn't anyone that can stand at a distance and trade punches and kicks with Silva other than maybe Machida. This brings me to the best matchup for SIlva - his good friend and training partner Lyoto Machida.

As you guys have intimated a fight between Machida and Silva could either be very boring or very explosive. I would give Machida a good chance but I would pick Silva every day of the week against Machida.

The best two contenders for Silva at LHW not in the UFC are certainly Gegard Mousasi and Renato Sobral ... who fight next weekend. I absolutely think Mousasi could beat Silva at some point but probably isn't ready for that challenge just yet. He needs a few fights in the cage to get accustomed to the differences in dimensions (he has only fight in rings up to now) between the two venues. I think the guy that is ready for Silva or Machida RIGHT NOW today at LHW is a little known fighter Poland who goes by the name of Mamed The Cannibal Khalidov. He has crazy good striking, takedowns and kicks. I really hope he gets brought into Strikeforce or the UFC at some point in the future because he is the real deal. He is like a more mature, advanced and refined version of Jon Jones.

One last thought I had at middleweight for Silva is against Melvin Manhoef or Ronaldo Jacare Souza. Those guys each have different strengths with Manhoef having the most destructive striking in the world and Souza having a tremendous ground game. But, Mousasi has beaten both of those guys in the Dream tournament so I would say after they get some more fights in a cage under their belt. Maybe WEC reject and former Pride superstar Paulo Fihlo could give Silva trouble at middleweight as well. If Fihlo is off the drugs he is the most dominant middleweight in the world. But, with Fihlo thats a big IF.

Anyway ... That my take.

@Neozoo

I don't know why you think I have anything against you personally. There is no reason we can't find common ground. You have seemed to back off the UFC rhetoric and hyperbole as well as ceased with the Fedor bashing that runs rampant on these boards. So, no issues here.

penn walks around at 180/185.

frankie edgar. better stand up, wrestling should negate jj. edgar by g'np.

florian should have attacked the legs and body relentlessly with tip and rounddhouse kicks. delagratti did a lousy job of helping florian if what we saw was his game plan.

great discussion.

oh i don't know...the whole "disgusts me" remark.
just kidding.
we're both very passionate mma fans, that see things alil differently sometimes, which is good.

and by the way, if you've ever read my comments on fedor, i really never ever bashed him except the one time remark about the dog meat. which i think i explained in our last conversation.
just so we are clear, i will repeat it....

fedor will go down as one of the top 3 hw's of all time, fedor is the best hw on the planet as of now. however, mma is always evolving. bigger guys now have better talent than 7years ago.
and i can't say for a fact that if fedor fought the same brock that showed up in ufc 100 that he would destroy him, he might, might, might lose.
now if that is fedor bashing, then i think fedor fans are a little too sensitive.

i am and always have been a fedor fan. since the first time i saw him in pride and said, "who's this little pudgy cherub faced guy gonna beat?"
and wham! he unanimously beat semmy schilt.
i was like, "holy sh!t!" wow. and i like schilt.
and i've always said, i love his demeanor.
not much more praise i can heap on him.
but, he might fall victim to the motivational factor i was speaking about earlier.
especially, in his 2nd fight for sf.
the only guy outside ufc, that i think has a chance is overeem. but again overeem is a strange dude, he has all the potential and natural gifts one could possess, i just don't know if he has the psychological toughness or the heart.

and as far as ufc goes, i am huge fan of dana and appreciate what they have done for the sport of mma. and i look at what and why they do certain things as a protection for their brand and product.
and yes dana emulates vince mcmahon. and that is not an insult for anyone that knows business, it is a compliment. vince brought pro wrestling mainstream, overcame adversity of competition (ted turner) that was not afraid to outspend him
and still came out on top. and ended up owning the competition.
very similar to dana and what the ufc has done in regards to pride.

anyway, it seems like we're pals now.

@Richard Bikle

Wow. You really think Frankie Edgar has better standup than BJ Penn? I guess I'll just say we can agree to disagree on that one.

Another thing about BJ Penn is he has very underrated wrestling. He is pretty much impossible to takedown by anyone at 155. It's pretty much impossible for anyone in any weight class to take him down with his balance and flexibility. Obviously when he gets gassed that all goes out the window but even when you do take him down that doesn't mean you have the advantage. He has the best guard in MMA thats nearly impossible to pass. To be honest the only exceptions have been when he fought fighters at the heavier weight classes. I just think a LW he is pretty much unstoppable.

In reference to the Florian game plan and the leg kicks. I think what happened is Kenny got a taste of Penn's power towards the end of the first round and didn't want to stay in the pocket in exchange. If you notice in the second round Florian landed and nice leg kick then a few seconds later threw another one and BJ timed it and came with a big overhand right that just missed. When he throws out those leg kicks he leaves himself exposed for a counter overhand right or a takedown.

It seemed like Florian was trying to make Penn tired so he could finish him in the late rounds. The only problem is he didn't do any damage from any position.

For some reason Peen seemed a little paced or tentative. I don't know if he didn't want to over exert himself unnecessarily or if he was just biding his time but he could have ended that fight in the first or second round.

@Neozoo

At this point I think saying Fedor will end up as one of the 3 best HW's of all time is an understatement. He is already essentially affirmed that he is the greatest HW fighter in the short history of MMA. I think a more likely scenario is that he ends up being the greatest fighter in the history of the sport period.

I agree with you about Overeem. The guy has as much talent as anyone but doesn't seem to have the heart and desire of a champion in all of his fights. I thought he showed during the Cro-Cop fight in japan a year or so ago but he did like 6 knees to Mirko's groin and it ended in a DQ.

I've pretty much let my feelings be known about Dana White so no need to rehash that now. The guys don't a lot for the sport but that doesn't absolve him when he says stupid stuff and treats everyone who doesn't kiss his butt like dog crap. The guy is just a vile human being.

johnny5, penn didnt have his old confidence after taking such an az kicking from gsp. if florian was sticking to a game plan, it sucked. penn always has low hands, he'll take a head shot before a body shot. penns hand work is not that great. its good but he shows very limited combinations. if florian had executed tradition muay thai leg kicks, and any good fourm of counter kicks, he could have taken a lot out of penn. trying to out run penn plays right into his game, he likes coming forward. when penn fought gsp and couldnt have forward momentum, he looked lost, (and really guys, penn and gsp are very close to the same size), edgar has pretty good stand up, and if he stays in the pocket and penn cant move forward, edgar has a good shot. penn has good balance when he's against the cage, and he defends the single leg & single leg sweep well. hit him with a double leg (ala gsp) or high crotch and he's going down. jui jitsu guys have horrible takedowns, edgar shows some real mat skills. i think its a good fight. i dont see penn as a great fighter near as much as i see guys that arent bringing the key to the coconut, so to speak.

As for silva, some of the best muay thai in the ufc. why forrest would try to stand and trade with him is beyond me. forrest is a much better grappler than kick boxer.
i do like hendo's chances, i'll go for hendo in that fight.
i'd also go for shogun or vitor over silva.